Comments on: The conscience of a liberal: why I am considering abstaining in the Iraqi War Referendum vote… http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/ Tue, 22 May 2012 07:18:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matt Singer http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42036 Matt Singer Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:49:25 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42036 I guess I'm just not understanding your argument. And the problem I had with the rush to war folks was that their mentality was "If you're not with us, you're against America." I was perfectly content to be considered concerned about the rush to war (although, frankly, I was one of those idiots who straddled the question on Iraq up until the end, foolishly thinking I should trust the wise old men of Washington to not go to war without good reason). I guess I’m just not understanding your argument.

And the problem I had with the rush to war folks was that their mentality was “If you’re not with us, you’re against America.” I was perfectly content to be considered concerned about the rush to war (although, frankly, I was one of those idiots who straddled the question on Iraq up until the end, foolishly thinking I should trust the wise old men of Washington to not go to war without good reason).

]]> By: Jason http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42024 Jason Sun, 28 Oct 2007 22:06:35 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42024 Hey Matt, I am trying not to make this about the backers and truth be told, minus a few of the more prominent folks, I only know a few of the organizers. Saying that I don't like the "backers" suggests I am against any and all of the backers of the measure and that is simply not true either. I am just thinking out loud about this effort. I don't have much influence over it; in fact, other than my vote, I don't much influence at all. And this is not about you being this or that (and for the record, I don't think you are a dick), it's about how questioning this effort out loud makes it suddenly that I am with the anti-war folks or against them. The last time I checked, we (progressives, anti-war folks, liberals, whoever) scoffed at the same attitude in the pro-war world... Hey Matt, I am trying not to make this about the backers and truth be told, minus a few of the more prominent folks, I only know a few of the organizers. Saying that I don’t like the “backers” suggests I am against any and all of the backers of the measure and that is simply not true either. I am just thinking out loud about this effort. I don’t have much influence over it; in fact, other than my vote, I don’t much influence at all. And this is not about you being this or that (and for the record, I don’t think you are a dick), it’s about how questioning this effort out loud makes it suddenly that I am with the anti-war folks or against them. The last time I checked, we (progressives, anti-war folks, liberals, whoever) scoffed at the same attitude in the pro-war world…

]]> By: Matt Singer http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42021 Matt Singer Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:47:43 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42021 I still just don't see the real argument. It seems to me to be "I don't like the backers of this measure. Therefore, I won't vote on it." That still strikes me as an odd way to take a position on issues. Alice -- I didn't call Jason odd. I called his reasoning odd. Actions can be odd without infecting an entire person. If I believed Jason generally did odd things, I might characterize him that way. I don't think he generally does odd things, which is why I'm all the more confused by his position. Jason -- If my tone appears harsh, that may just be the Internet muting the emotions. I'm really more perplexed than upset. And I still think the arguments I've seen so far are weak. If that makes me a dick, so be it. I still just don’t see the real argument. It seems to me to be “I don’t like the backers of this measure. Therefore, I won’t vote on it.”

That still strikes me as an odd way to take a position on issues.

Alice — I didn’t call Jason odd. I called his reasoning odd. Actions can be odd without infecting an entire person. If I believed Jason generally did odd things, I might characterize him that way. I don’t think he generally does odd things, which is why I’m all the more confused by his position.

Jason — If my tone appears harsh, that may just be the Internet muting the emotions. I’m really more perplexed than upset. And I still think the arguments I’ve seen so far are weak. If that makes me a dick, so be it.

]]> By: Pogie http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42019 Pogie Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:27:02 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42019 I assume, Mr. Simon, by that logic, we should have troops on the ground in every country with a democratic movement. Just how many sincere advocates of democracy in the government do you think there are in Iraq? My guess is about 11. I assume, Mr. Simon, by that logic, we should have troops on the ground in every country with a democratic movement.

Just how many sincere advocates of democracy in the government do you think there are in Iraq? My guess is about 11.

]]> By: M. Simon http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42016 M. Simon Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:17:24 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42016 Is it really "progressive" to abandon the democrats in Iraq? In my youth we had a president who said: <b>Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.</b> - John F. Kennedy That used to be the progressive position. It is still mine. Is it really “progressive” to abandon the democrats in Iraq?

In my youth we had a president who said:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. – John F. Kennedy

That used to be the progressive position.

It is still mine.

]]> By: Keptjib.Com » The conscience of a liberal: why I am considering abstaining in … http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42014 Keptjib.Com » The conscience of a liberal: why I am considering abstaining in … Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:33:43 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42014 [...] wrote an interesting post today on The conscience of a liberal: why I am considering abstaining in …Here’s a quick [...] [...] wrote an interesting post today on The conscience of a liberal: why I am considering abstaining in …Here’s a quick [...]

]]> By: Alice http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42006 Alice Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:59:45 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42006 you are not alone jason!! i am probably voting yes (although maybe not... i am tired of the "peaceseekers" using bully-group think tactics when i try to talk about this over beers) but i am angry that every time i want to have a discussion about this i get vilified and put squarely in the pro war camp. and... i have a lot of respect for you matt and the work that you do, but you need to be careful before you call out someone as odd, almost as if you are questioning their anti-war credibility, when they are just working on their concerns in an open environment. you are not alone jason!! i am probably voting yes (although maybe not… i am tired of the “peaceseekers” using bully-group think tactics when i try to talk about this over beers) but i am angry that every time i want to have a discussion about this i get vilified and put squarely in the pro war camp. and… i have a lot of respect for you matt and the work that you do, but you need to be careful before you call out someone as odd, almost as if you are questioning their anti-war credibility, when they are just working on their concerns in an open environment.

]]> By: Jason http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42005 Jason Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:32:01 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42005 Wow Matt... I guess perhaps it is that tone that makes this decision so hard for me. Wow Matt… I guess perhaps it is that tone that makes this decision so hard for me.

]]> By: Pete Talbot http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42002 Pete Talbot Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:39:18 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42002 I certainly don't believe that if the referendums are successful in Missoula and Helena that the war will come to a screeching halt. Still, it's important to weigh in whenever, where ever, however one can to voice opposition to the war. I'm not patting myself on the back for voting 'yes' on Missoula's referendum and then saying "my work is done here." This is just one avenue to pursue. As to your claim that money could be better spent, I don't believe that a whole lot of money went into this effort. It has been pretty grassroots. I've said it before -- it's a momentum thing. Plus, I know that our Senators and Representative will be following the outcomes of these referendums. I'm proud of our city council and the anti-war activists that are advancing these referendums, and I'm voting 'yes.' I certainly don’t believe that if the referendums are successful in Missoula and Helena that the war will come to a screeching halt. Still, it’s important to weigh in whenever, where ever, however one can to voice opposition to the war. I’m not patting myself on the back for voting ‘yes’ on Missoula’s referendum and then saying “my work is done here.” This is just one avenue to pursue.

As to your claim that money could be better spent, I don’t believe that a whole lot of money went into this effort. It has been pretty grassroots.

I’ve said it before — it’s a momentum thing. Plus, I know that our Senators and Representative will be following the outcomes of these referendums.

I’m proud of our city council and the anti-war activists that are advancing these referendums, and I’m voting ‘yes.’

]]> By: Matt Singer http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-42001 Matt Singer Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:17:26 +0000 http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2007/10/27/the-conscience-of-a-liberal-why-i-am-considering-abstaining-in-the-iraqi-war-referendum-vote/#comment-42001 Abstaining, by definition, is staying on the sidelines. Anyways, I don't know what's happening in Helena, but in Missoula, we've been using the referendum as a way to identify opponents of the war. And I don't think I said there's no benefit or advantage to abstention, I asked what the benefit is. Anyways -- you say that you wish anti-war folks would do other things. I just think that's not a great argument for refusing to vote on the measure itself. It seems to me that the fact that you're spending time debating whether to vote your clearly deeply-held feelings when you're being given a chance to do that is a bit odd. I'm not sure any of this will make a huge difference. Still, if you think it's more important to send a message to the Helena Peace Seekers than to Congress, I guess that's your prerogative. Abstaining, by definition, is staying on the sidelines. Anyways, I don’t know what’s happening in Helena, but in Missoula, we’ve been using the referendum as a way to identify opponents of the war.

And I don’t think I said there’s no benefit or advantage to abstention, I asked what the benefit is.

Anyways — you say that you wish anti-war folks would do other things. I just think that’s not a great argument for refusing to vote on the measure itself. It seems to me that the fact that you’re spending time debating whether to vote your clearly deeply-held feelings when you’re being given a chance to do that is a bit odd.

I’m not sure any of this will make a huge difference. Still, if you think it’s more important to send a message to the Helena Peace Seekers than to Congress, I guess that’s your prerogative.

]]>